He lives several hours away from me. I'm in NYC and he's... lets say west of me. He was visiting the old neighborhood today. We met for a few (several) pints of Sam Adams Octoberfest. We have come to agree on a few things:

1. The 9/11 attacks did not come about due to the Bush administration needing a major catastrophe for his re-election.

2. Obama is a citizen. And he isn't a commie. The election was legit.

3. Windows 7 is worth buying.

The first two came from my theory that any conspiracy that big would mean that both Republicans and Democrats (as well as the rest of the government) would have to be in on it. Therefore his guys are just as much to blame as "my guys" (although I do not label myself that way, but nevermind). As well, the government as a whole in the USA is indeed a bunch of morons, and couldn't hide a conspiracy if they had the Illuminati, aliens and Oprah on their side.

Good beer is a fine mental lubricant. It gets rusty processes moving again.

As for the second, well. We both agree that the Apple conspiracy is alive and well. Please. It just works. At least as well as a Mac OS does. To quote another friend. If the Mac OS "just works" then why are there Mac websites devoted to problems just like Windows?

Nevermind. Yet again. I'm still a bit drunk.

The above is simply the the ramblings of a squiffed mind. YMMV. Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball.

P.S. Why does my spell check underline Obama and yet accept Oprah as a correct spelling? CONSPIRACY!

...however... (you knew a however was coming didn't ya?)

Many people I run into haven't even gone so far as to consider what they believe or why they believe it all - reason and un-reason have not yet gotten involved. These are the folks who we can still make a difference with and this is where I try to spend my efforts.

I too have run into the 'un-reason brigade' and indeed they are a lost cause. My own mother now sits among them as regards our president. She actually called him a Marxist Nazi a couple of weeks back... my brain hurts just trying to grasp that one. I knew it was a lost cause when I asked her to define Marxism or Nazism and she could not do either but still wouldn't back down on her characterization...even though she admitted she couldn't define it. It's no fun realizing you cannot get through to somebody.

@Speedweasel - Well, I wouldn't call it a win... but maybe it is progress in the right direction. A beginning maybe. We all end up believing some things via authority - simply because none of us has the time to research absolutely everything we might hear. The trick is learning how to discern the actually knowledgeable authority from the crackpot. To do this you need to be able to apply some critical thinking skills and evaluate basic statements for their likelihood of accuracy - clearly this is easier in some fields than others. In the case of your friend all you done so far is correct some wrong ideas... but in doing so you have shown him a right idea and maybe, just maybe, the next time a wrong idea comes down the pike they'll remember that they've been wrong before and possibly question the idea without simply swallowing it whole. Probably not, but stranger things have happened. One can only hope.

...was the reading list Dan suggested for me many years ago. They were all great and I recommend reading them in that order.

From there, anything by Dawkins or Feynman tends to get people thinking.

One of the most annoying things I've noticed about debating the credulous is their tendency to swallow-whole any information from their arbitrary choice of trusted authority and refuse to look any deeper into the logic (or illogic) of their argument.

[This phenomenon is explored in some detail in that free book I never shut up about, The Authoritarians. -Dan]

It’s like thinking hurts them and they are only prepared to take a 40,000 foot view of what is, in reality, a complicated subject.

Now, if we're arguing about science or technology, I can generally illuminate the topic enough to impress them and they might end up seeing things my way, but what have they really learned? Often nothing!

They end up credulously believing whatever I say and it’s really just chance that I’m better informed than the last guy who was telling them that burning saltwater is the next big renewable energy source, that is until big oil silences the maverick scientists who discovered it.

All I’ve done is replace their poor source of information (crackpot conspiracy theorist on youtube) with a better source (me). But they are still gathering their beliefs through deference to perceived authority and I’m not seeing a lot of independent thinking or questioning coming from them.

Sometimes I’ll end up arguing with some cretin long after they started to agree with me because they are still refusing to question anything, consider the evidence or even approach the topic logically.

So, my question is, is this a win? My credulous friend no longer believes complete garbage but they still have no working bullshit filter because they are intellectually lazy. I haven’t taught anyone to fish, but at least they’re going to market now, instead of eating spoiled fish out of a dumpster. (Too much with the fishing analogy?)

I give you an email that I recently received. The person agreed, nay insisted, that I post it.:

"On Sept 20th the Person (Barack Hussian Obama) falsely and illegally elected as President will show his real colors.
He will kiss the ass of a nation who has killed more people wishing freedom since 1949,Communist Red China.
The flag of a Communist Nation will be raised at the white house (should be called the red house now!!)
Richard since you were never in the military you cannot know how repugnant this action will be to every
person who has served in the US armed forces .
So yes he is a communist,if you act like a communist ,appoint communists,you are A COMMUNIST!!!"

Quotes mine, the rest untouched.

This is a guy that I have known for over 20 years. I love him like a brother. But he seems to have snapped lately. I wish that I could change his mind. But I cannot and will not try. Instead I will not communicate with him for a while, as I think of what the fuck I will actually DO.

The battle for rationality is not finished. It isn't even fucking started.

It's certainly a long term battle to fight the quacks and charlatans and to wake the duped... but I still maintain it's worth it. I've had 9 definite "conversions" (and at least another dozen who are on the right track) from woo and quackery believers to rational thinkers... and those 9 people have a combined total of 17 kids - all of whom are now well inoculated against the ignorance to which their parent(s) were prey - in my book thats a victory. yes, it is a small group but it still makes a difference. As long as people keep trying to educate and show people how to think rationally it's not a lost cause.

I'm a virtual nobody and I can point to 30+ people and know that I have markedly improved their life and by extension probably the lives of quite a few other people down the road - that's as good as it gets for me. Now look at Dan - a minor (albeit most excellent) internet personality who promotes rational thinking and imagine how many eyes and minds he has opened to a wider reality based world. Then look at groups like the JREF (James Randi Educational Foundation) and the effects their efforts have had across universities the world over (a great many campus skeptic and freethinker societies credit the JREF as inspiration for their founding). While there is still lots of woo and irrational belief out there it is no longer being so blindly accepted - there are many people fighting it and the number is growing everyday.

The battle for rationality, while a long way from finished, is being well fought and progress *is* being made. I think it's part of why the quacks and fraudsters are getting shriller every year - they have to in order to keep being heard. The Ricahrd Dawkins', Michael Shermers, Penn and Tellers, Oracs, Mythbusters and even Daniel Rutters of the world are making an ever growing impact. There are more prominent and publicly visible rational thinkers out there now than ever before - love them or hate them they are being listened to and more and more folks are seeing the point of thinking instead of just believing. Even us little guys can make an impact on those directly around us with very little effort - do like Dan does and get a couple of copies of "Why People Believe Weird Things" and give them out to folks close to you who have a few weird beliefs - if nothing else it's a great read and it just may get them thinking as well. I do it - I also have at least two copies of Sagan's "The Demon-haunted World" on hand as well - it makes a great follow up to "Why People Believe Weird Things" for those who come back to me looking for more reading material (happens at least once or twice a year). Besides, it's a good read too!

In short; it's a battle worth a bit of a headache - to me at least.

I agree that the harmful, force your ideas/whatever upon everyone else needs to be stopped. But the personal, I choose to live this way types....

The only issue is that there is no sharp dividing line between these two states.