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	<title>Comments on: The Preliminary Proving of Pat Putt, Psychic</title>
	<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/</link>
	<description>the blog that is not dansdata.com</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:17:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: mlipphardt</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4894</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 03:40:44 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4894</guid>
					<description>@alex, I am always right.  Ask my teen daughter!  My chi tells me the answers and my spirit guides help me translate the astral flux.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@alex, I am always right.  Ask my teen daughter!  My chi tells me the answers and my spirit guides help me translate the astral flux.
</p>
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		<title>by: Alex Whiteside</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4877</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 00:39:13 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4877</guid>
					<description>mlipphardt is right of course, they often do make strong predictions. I guess I'm so used to assessing them from the unassailably flaky positions they retreat to as soon as you test them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mlipphardt is right of course, they often do make strong predictions. I guess I'm so used to assessing them from the unassailably flaky positions they retreat to as soon as you test them.
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4875</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 12:34:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4875</guid>
					<description>I agree with both of you :-).

Yes, psychics are often happy to make strong, definite, testable claims about their abilities, especially in advertisements. But when someone actually tries to pin their claims down, they almost invariably start the waffling Alex is talking about. Paranormal claimants are the kings of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#adhoc&quot;&gt;ad-hoc explanation&lt;/a&gt;.

You can side-step this whole problem by just looking at psychics' &lt;i&gt;results&lt;/i&gt;, though. Do they win lotteries? Do they find kidnapped children? Do they tell us what the moons of Neptune look like before we've sent a probe there? They certainly &lt;i&gt;try&lt;/i&gt; to do all of those things, but they do not seem to achieve better than chance results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree with both of you :-).</p>
	<p>Yes, psychics are often happy to make strong, definite, testable claims about their abilities, especially in advertisements. But when someone actually tries to pin their claims down, they almost invariably start the waffling Alex is talking about. Paranormal claimants are the kings of the <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#adhoc">ad-hoc explanation</a>.</p>
	<p>You can side-step this whole problem by just looking at psychics' <i>results</i>, though. Do they win lotteries? Do they find kidnapped children? Do they tell us what the moons of Neptune look like before we've sent a probe there? They certainly <i>try</i> to do all of those things, but they do not seem to achieve better than chance results.
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		<title>by: mlipphardt</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4874</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 04:10:16 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4874</guid>
					<description>@Alex - I call BS.  Psychics are generally very specific about what they can do.  Witness this test.  The testee knew exactly what to test for and was able to define the problem.  The difficulty is that they simply cannot do what they freaking claim to do!  In fact, they cannot do anything other than prey on and mislead the gullible and provide entertainment for the rest of us on late night TV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@Alex - I call BS.  Psychics are generally very specific about what they can do.  Witness this test.  The testee knew exactly what to test for and was able to define the problem.  The difficulty is that they simply cannot do what they freaking claim to do!  In fact, they cannot do anything other than prey on and mislead the gullible and provide entertainment for the rest of us on late night TV.
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		<title>by: Alex Whiteside</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4872</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 21:29:15 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4872</guid>
					<description>Actually, I think that psychics are pefectly happy to tell you exactly how it works, but great difficulty telling you what it does.

I mean, every psychic, regardless of their application, knows how their process works. A psychic ability gives them the information. Now, this is an unsatisfactory answer if you don't believe in psychic powers, but otherwise, it's perfectly valid. Suppose that somebody asked how you were able to talk to Aunt Sally when she's on another continent, and you told them you used the telephone. That'd be perfectly satisfactory, even though it's no more enlightening. You could go into technical detail about how the data is transmitted, but you don't need to do so. We can take &quot;I use a telephone&quot; as your explaination for your ability to communicate with Aunt Sally over huge distances. Likewise we can take &quot;it uses psychic powers&quot; as the psychic's answer for how they can receive secret information, without going into any technical detail about how the underlying psychic power does its thing.

The part that gives psychics problems is deciding just what their powers do. If someone wants to know what, exactly, my special long-distance-telephone ability does, I can explain that it lets me communicate with others at a great distance so long as they are awake, standing near their own telephone, and paying attention. And that's something you can objectively test me on, with no understanding of how the phone itself works. My distance-speaking ability can be proven.

Psychics don't have any clue what their ability does. Sometimes, their ability lets them know that the body is next to some water. Sometimes it turns out that it lets them know the environment is wet. Or they're crying. There's water in there somewhere. Or the opposite of water. Or it's the answer on Tuesdays and the opposite of the answer on Thursdays. How do you test them when they're not even sure what their ability does, and it might actually do the opposite of what they tell you it does?

The uncertainty in what their psychic powers do, rather than any uncertainty in how they work, is the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, I think that psychics are pefectly happy to tell you exactly how it works, but great difficulty telling you what it does.</p>
	<p>I mean, every psychic, regardless of their application, knows how their process works. A psychic ability gives them the information. Now, this is an unsatisfactory answer if you don't believe in psychic powers, but otherwise, it's perfectly valid. Suppose that somebody asked how you were able to talk to Aunt Sally when she's on another continent, and you told them you used the telephone. That'd be perfectly satisfactory, even though it's no more enlightening. You could go into technical detail about how the data is transmitted, but you don't need to do so. We can take "I use a telephone" as your explaination for your ability to communicate with Aunt Sally over huge distances. Likewise we can take "it uses psychic powers" as the psychic's answer for how they can receive secret information, without going into any technical detail about how the underlying psychic power does its thing.</p>
	<p>The part that gives psychics problems is deciding just what their powers do. If someone wants to know what, exactly, my special long-distance-telephone ability does, I can explain that it lets me communicate with others at a great distance so long as they are awake, standing near their own telephone, and paying attention. And that's something you can objectively test me on, with no understanding of how the phone itself works. My distance-speaking ability can be proven.</p>
	<p>Psychics don't have any clue what their ability does. Sometimes, their ability lets them know that the body is next to some water. Sometimes it turns out that it lets them know the environment is wet. Or they're crying. There's water in there somewhere. Or the opposite of water. Or it's the answer on Tuesdays and the opposite of the answer on Thursdays. How do you test them when they're not even sure what their ability does, and it might actually do the opposite of what they tell you it does?</p>
	<p>The uncertainty in what their psychic powers do, rather than any uncertainty in how they work, is the issue.
</p>
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		<title>by: TwoHedWlf</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4871</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 05:54:09 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4871</guid>
					<description>I think any type of picking descriptions leaves too much vagueness in it.  But, to create a perfect valid and objective test would require more of an understanding of how it works.  Which at the moment we don't have. (Ignoring that it doesn't actually work at all)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think any type of picking descriptions leaves too much vagueness in it.  But, to create a perfect valid and objective test would require more of an understanding of how it works.  Which at the moment we don't have. (Ignoring that it doesn't actually work at all)
</p>
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		<title>by: rho</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4870</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 04:46:52 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4870</guid>
					<description>If I were Ms. Putt I'd say something to the effect that people can't pick their own descriptions because they'll pick what they want to believe rather than what's correct.

Maybe the test took that into consideration. I don't know, as in grand Internet tradition I didn't read any of the links.

Randi should have had ten married men psychically read by Ms. Putt and then had their wives pick the right description. I don't know if it would have been scientifically valid, but it would have be an atomic laff riot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If I were Ms. Putt I'd say something to the effect that people can't pick their own descriptions because they'll pick what they want to believe rather than what's correct.</p>
	<p>Maybe the test took that into consideration. I don't know, as in grand Internet tradition I didn't read any of the links.</p>
	<p>Randi should have had ten married men psychically read by Ms. Putt and then had their wives pick the right description. I don't know if it would have been scientifically valid, but it would have be an atomic laff riot.
</p>
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		<title>by: reyalp</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4869</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 11:18:42 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4869</guid>
					<description>Alex:
There's also the fact that the test subjects frequently think they did well right up until the results are read out. Mrs. Putt had the option of replacing people she found difficult to read, but apparently gave no indication anything was wrong until being &quot;gobsmacked&quot; by the result. In the cordless phone analogy, this would be the equivalent of not being able to tell the difference between standing next to the base and standing inside a Faraday cage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alex:<br />
There's also the fact that the test subjects frequently think they did well right up until the results are read out. Mrs. Putt had the option of replacing people she found difficult to read, but apparently gave no indication anything was wrong until being "gobsmacked" by the result. In the cordless phone analogy, this would be the equivalent of not being able to tell the difference between standing next to the base and standing inside a Faraday cage.
</p>
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		<title>by: Alex Whiteside</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4868</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 21:47:48 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4868</guid>
					<description>Err, never run into these sorts of complications until after the fact, i.e. after the test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Err, never run into these sorts of complications until after the fact, i.e. after the test.
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		<title>by: Alex Whiteside</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4867</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 21:47:04 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/05/14/the-preliminary-proving-of-pat-putt-psychic/#comment-4867</guid>
					<description>You don't need an understanding of how a cordless phone works to figure out that it won't work more than 20 metres from the base station or on the other side of a big metal object. Those things will come up in everyday use. Likewise it's odd that psychics never run into these sorts of complications (inability to read people wearing academic gowns, inability to read people facing the other way, inability to read people when the readings are written down afterwards...) after the fact. And they never notice the interference until after the failure is confirmed by the testers! Then it's clear as day somehow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You don't need an understanding of how a cordless phone works to figure out that it won't work more than 20 metres from the base station or on the other side of a big metal object. Those things will come up in everyday use. Likewise it's odd that psychics never run into these sorts of complications (inability to read people wearing academic gowns, inability to read people facing the other way, inability to read people when the readings are written down afterwards...) after the fact. And they never notice the interference until after the failure is confirmed by the testers! Then it's clear as day somehow.
</p>
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