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	<title>Comments on: Ultracapacitors versus batteries, no holds barred!</title>
	<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/</link>
	<description>the blog that is not dansdata.com</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 21:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: TwoHedWlf</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4079</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4079</guid>
					<description>Either way, I would be happy with a vehicle with a range of 3/4 AU even if it does run out of fuel in 12 minutes.:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Either way, I would be happy with a vehicle with a range of 3/4 AU even if it does run out of fuel in 12 minutes.:)
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		<title>by: ZorglubZ</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4063</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4063</guid>
					<description>Jonadab - 
&lt;i&gt;12 minutes at half the speed of light, wouldn’t that mean it could go 6 light minutes (more than 1 AU) on a tank?&lt;/i&gt;
Nono, one AU ~= 500 Light-Seconds, or 8 1/3 Light-Minute</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jonadab -<br />
<i>12 minutes at half the speed of light, wouldn’t that mean it could go 6 light minutes (more than 1 AU) on a tank?</i><br />
Nono, one AU ~= 500 Light-Seconds, or 8 1/3 Light-Minute
</p>
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		<title>by: arteitle</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4062</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4062</guid>
					<description>&quot;A NiMH AA will only weigh around 30 grams. So for the 405-gram weight of the ultracap, you could have about thirty AAs.&quot; Thirty, or thirteen?

&lt;i&gt;[Quite right - I've fixed it. Thanks! -Dan]&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>"A NiMH AA will only weigh around 30 grams. So for the 405-gram weight of the ultracap, you could have about thirty AAs." Thirty, or thirteen?</p>
	<p><i>[Quite right - I've fixed it. Thanks! -Dan]</i>
</p>
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		<title>by: Jonadab</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4061</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4061</guid>
					<description>12 minutes at half the speed of light, wouldn't that mean it could go 6 light minutes (more than 1 AU) on a tank?

Duriel, by &quot;supermarket sizes&quot; I suspect he meant the usual AA, AAA, C, D, and 9-volt sizes, the ones they hang on the end of every single aisle and checkout lane during the month of December, on the theory that you have to have them sitting around just in case someone gets a battery-powered toy in the gift exchange.  You can get these form factors of batteries even at small groceries and convenience stores and whatnot.  CR123 is more in the watch/camera battery category, something you're more likely to have to go looking for, because not all stores would necessarily carry it, and if they do it'll be in only one place in the store.

Incidentally, I'm old enough to remember when C, D, and 9-volt batteries were all *far* more common than AAA.  (AA was perhaps the most common of all, though, and may still be.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>12 minutes at half the speed of light, wouldn't that mean it could go 6 light minutes (more than 1 AU) on a tank?</p>
	<p>Duriel, by "supermarket sizes" I suspect he meant the usual AA, AAA, C, D, and 9-volt sizes, the ones they hang on the end of every single aisle and checkout lane during the month of December, on the theory that you have to have them sitting around just in case someone gets a battery-powered toy in the gift exchange.  You can get these form factors of batteries even at small groceries and convenience stores and whatnot.  CR123 is more in the watch/camera battery category, something you're more likely to have to go looking for, because not all stores would necessarily carry it, and if they do it'll be in only one place in the store.</p>
	<p>Incidentally, I'm old enough to remember when C, D, and 9-volt batteries were all *far* more common than AAA.  (AA was perhaps the most common of all, though, and may still be.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Duriel</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4060</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4060</guid>
					<description>&quot;I think the only “supermarket” battery sizes you can get in a lithium version are AA and AAA&quot;

You can get the lithium CR123 and CR2 in supermarkets too, but I'd only advise that if you don't like money. As you've mentioned before, online sellers and Ebay dealers are better places to get these batteries. I'm getting five off-brand CR123's shipped from Hong Kong for about half the amount the supermarkets charge for a single name-brand one! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>"I think the only “supermarket” battery sizes you can get in a lithium version are AA and AAA"</p>
	<p>You can get the lithium CR123 and CR2 in supermarkets too, but I'd only advise that if you don't like money. As you've mentioned before, online sellers and Ebay dealers are better places to get these batteries. I'm getting five off-brand CR123's shipped from Hong Kong for about half the amount the supermarkets charge for a single name-brand one!
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4059</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4059</guid>
					<description>Yes, &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-4054&quot;&gt;Coderer&lt;/a&gt; - All-Battery.com doesn't look like a bad option, for US shoppers at least.

Off-brand &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.all-battery.com/cardnimhdsize10000mahhighcapacityrechargeablebattery2xd.aspx&quot;&gt;10Ah D cells&lt;/a&gt; are indeed one of the &quot;weekly specials&quot; at all-battery.com at the moment; they're $US14.71 per pair ex delivery, so three pairs will cost you $US44.13 ex delivery. Delivery within the contiguous USA looks like costing about $8 to $10, so All-Battery is a better deal per milliamp-hour (assuming everybody's telling the truth about the battery capacity) than DealExtreme's $50-delivered-to-anywhere 7Ah cells. All-Battery have various batteries-plus-a-charger package deals, too.

All-Battery charge about $US35 for delivery of six Ds to Australia, though. They also don't seem to have much in the way of name-brand cells, unless you buy a power-tool battery and take it apart :-).

(My Amazon links above aren't likely to be any use to people outside the USA, either. As a general rule, Amazon won't deliver anything but books, CDs and DVDs outside the USA - not that this has stopped them from CEASELESSLY promoting only-available-in-the-USA products and delivery options to us foreign customers. The other companies that sell stuff &lt;i&gt;through&lt;/i&gt; Amazon may deliver outside the USA, though.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, <a href="#comment-4054">Coderer</a> - All-Battery.com doesn't look like a bad option, for US shoppers at least.</p>
	<p>Off-brand <a href="http://www.all-battery.com/cardnimhdsize10000mahhighcapacityrechargeablebattery2xd.aspx">10Ah D cells</a> are indeed one of the "weekly specials" at all-battery.com at the moment; they're $US14.71 per pair ex delivery, so three pairs will cost you $US44.13 ex delivery. Delivery within the contiguous USA looks like costing about $8 to $10, so All-Battery is a better deal per milliamp-hour (assuming everybody's telling the truth about the battery capacity) than DealExtreme's $50-delivered-to-anywhere 7Ah cells. All-Battery have various batteries-plus-a-charger package deals, too.</p>
	<p>All-Battery charge about $US35 for delivery of six Ds to Australia, though. They also don't seem to have much in the way of name-brand cells, unless you buy a power-tool battery and take it apart :-).</p>
	<p>(My Amazon links above aren't likely to be any use to people outside the USA, either. As a general rule, Amazon won't deliver anything but books, CDs and DVDs outside the USA - not that this has stopped them from CEASELESSLY promoting only-available-in-the-USA products and delivery options to us foreign customers. The other companies that sell stuff <i>through</i> Amazon may deliver outside the USA, though.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4058</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4058</guid>
					<description>Re the self-discharge rate of ultracapacitors, the Light for Life people have &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.511lightforlife.com/blog/2008/10/31/holding-the-charge/&quot;&gt;a blog post&lt;/a&gt; on the subject. Apparently the self-discharge rate will eat about 75% of the charge in one year, and is fastest when the light's fully charged. If this is correct, you probably wouldn't notice much charge loss if the flashlight had been off the charger for a week. And you can top it up in no time at all, of course.

If you want a flashlight that'll definitely be good to go even if it's been sitting in a drawer for a few years, then ordinary name-brand alkalines are a decent option. The best option in sheer battery shelf-life is non-rechargeable lithium batteries, usually the CR123 &quot;camera batteries&quot; that small &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dansdata.com/ultrafire.htm&quot;&gt;tactical&lt;/a&gt;&quot; flashlights use.

I think the only &quot;supermarket&quot; battery sizes you can get in a lithium version are AA and AAA, and they have a 1.7-volt-per-cell nominal output that will cook the bulb of flashlights that expect less than 1.5 volts per cell under load. Many flashlights are fine with them but, for instance, the standard 2-AA-cell Mini Maglite will go through at least two bulbs per set of batteries if you use lithiums in it.

For rechargeable-battery shelf-life, you want either quality sealed lead-acid (very heavy, of course), or &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery&quot;&gt;low-self-discharge&lt;/a&gt; NiMH cells, often sold as &quot;pre-charged&quot; or &quot;ready-to-use&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re the self-discharge rate of ultracapacitors, the Light for Life people have <a href="http://www.511lightforlife.com/blog/2008/10/31/holding-the-charge/">a blog post</a> on the subject. Apparently the self-discharge rate will eat about 75% of the charge in one year, and is fastest when the light's fully charged. If this is correct, you probably wouldn't notice much charge loss if the flashlight had been off the charger for a week. And you can top it up in no time at all, of course.</p>
	<p>If you want a flashlight that'll definitely be good to go even if it's been sitting in a drawer for a few years, then ordinary name-brand alkalines are a decent option. The best option in sheer battery shelf-life is non-rechargeable lithium batteries, usually the CR123 "camera batteries" that small "<a href="http://www.dansdata.com/ultrafire.htm">tactical</a>" flashlights use.</p>
	<p>I think the only "supermarket" battery sizes you can get in a lithium version are AA and AAA, and they have a 1.7-volt-per-cell nominal output that will cook the bulb of flashlights that expect less than 1.5 volts per cell under load. Many flashlights are fine with them but, for instance, the standard 2-AA-cell Mini Maglite will go through at least two bulbs per set of batteries if you use lithiums in it.</p>
	<p>For rechargeable-battery shelf-life, you want either quality sealed lead-acid (very heavy, of course), or <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_self-discharge_NiMH_battery">low-self-discharge</a> NiMH cells, often sold as "pre-charged" or "ready-to-use".
</p>
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		<title>by: RichVR</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4057</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4057</guid>
					<description>So are ultracaps the first step on the way to the super-high energy densities needed for power guns? As in the Hammer's Slammers novels by David Drake?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So are ultracaps the first step on the way to the super-high energy densities needed for power guns? As in the Hammer's Slammers novels by David Drake?
</p>
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		<title>by: Stark</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4055</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4055</guid>
					<description>OK, I got curious so I did a little research.  Most of the ultracap manufacturers list -25C to -40C as the lower operating limit depending on the variety of ultracap (there are a couple of different chemistries in use) - this is noticeably better than most battery chemistries can do.  As for self discharge - well, there's not a whole lot of info on that - at least not from some cursory research.  Numbers are few and far between but it seems that claims range from 0.1% per day to as much as 3% per day.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, I got curious so I did a little research.  Most of the ultracap manufacturers list -25C to -40C as the lower operating limit depending on the variety of ultracap (there are a couple of different chemistries in use) - this is noticeably better than most battery chemistries can do.  As for self discharge - well, there's not a whole lot of info on that - at least not from some cursory research.  Numbers are few and far between but it seems that claims range from 0.1% per day to as much as 3% per day.
</p>
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		<title>by: Coderer</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4054</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/01/13/ultracapacitors-versus-batteries-no-holds-barred/#comment-4054</guid>
					<description>Wow, you're kind of getting... robbed? on that battery cost analysis.  I use all-battery.com for pretty much all my rechargeables, and everything's always &quot;on sale&quot; (sort of like what they sued Sears over, but I'm not complaining).  I don't know if they ship to AUS or how much they charge if they do, but I've made 3 or 4 orders from them and haven't had a problem yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wow, you're kind of getting... robbed? on that battery cost analysis.  I use all-battery.com for pretty much all my rechargeables, and everything's always "on sale" (sort of like what they sued Sears over, but I'm not complaining).  I don't know if they ship to AUS or how much they charge if they do, but I've made 3 or 4 orders from them and haven't had a problem yet.
</p>
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