And no, you weren't clear in your meaning... but I suspect there's a bit of revision in your clarification as well.

Of course the whole god has left man to his own devices and is inviting him into his kingdom post death thing does happen to have it's own set of giant holes. Not the least of which is that your own bible doesn't support the idea.

Ah well, I'll give in here and let the thread die. Clearly you are as set in your choices as I in mine so we're just wasting time.

You have a nice holiday, I hope it's as full of happiness for you as mine is for me. (and yes, I celebrate Christmas - secularly - as a time to appreciate my family all the more)

God invites people back into the kingdom where he is king, having paid the penalty (death) for our rebellion.

That's probably as clear as mud too. ah well. That's what God sent you, that's what you get. feel free to ridicule

Stark: you're sounding pretty angry there mate. I could answer your questions but i suppose they are rhetorical and would just provoke you a bit more. while I do get a small amount of pleasure out of provoking people's anger, it's probably not for the greater good

God gives people what they want does he? Really? You're gonna go with that one? OK then... ask an amputee or a paraplegic if god gives people what they want. What? He doesn't work that way? Heard it, ain't buying it anymore. The bible says, in plain language even, that if you pray for it you will get it. You could try the they must be a true believer routine but I think you and I both know that many amputees are in fact true believers... and yet they have no new limbs to show for it. Not even once in all of recorded history. I can promise you that every single on of them prayed for it though.

Of course, I've also heard many a preacher go the other route - god doesn't give you what you want he gives you what you need.... I think I could make a pretty convincing argument that your average amputee probably had a darned good need of that lost limb.

So... which route are we going to take today? God's ineffable plan perhaps? Maybe the old god is punishing them canard? Perhaps it'll be "god always gives us what we need so they must have needed that" and for good measure the ever popular "how dare you question the will of the lord".

So... once again it seems that your god is one of 4 possibilities. He's on vacation, a right prick, simply indifferent, or doesn't exist. Any way you go it equals the same thing - not worth believing in, not worthy of worship, and zero reason to even think he even exists in any case.

Now, Loki, there's a guy I could worship. Great sense of humor, fond of a practical joke or three, but if you crossed him you knew it in no uncertain terms. Yep, no claims of omnipotence but he certainly could smack you down if he needed to. Of course he's only as real as Yaweh... so... no worship for him either.

*closes eyes*

...nup, no pony. Do I need to subvocalise it? Invoke Him in some way? Maybe if I ask nicely?

Nup, still no pony. Which is a shame, because as you said (and I have to take you at your word, because hey, as per the earlier comment in the thread, apparently you're the word of God) He gives me what I want.

Which is a pony.

But I didn't *get* a pony.

Could it be that your imaginary friend doesn't exist?

Hell, I'd settle for a picture of a pony. It should be fairly easy for your god (or our god, or my god, or however you want to interpret it) who created the ENTIRETY of existence in seven days (pretty neat trick, eh?) to manipulate reality in such a way that one of the posters on my wall is a *picture* of a pony.

*looks around*

Nup, not even a whinny.

and this years christmas message:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his unique Son, that whoever trusts in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever trusts in him is not condemned, but whoever does not trust stands condemned already because he has not trusted in the name of God's unique Son.

(the 7am Sunday problem is solved quite easily by opening the door in a towel, with hair like a golliwog biscuit. I discovered this quite by accident.

WTF? What kind of specious circular logic is that?

Also, I could find Dan and punch him in the nose if I had the cash and the need. He is a real person. Tell me where to find your god and I'll gladly do the same.

BTW, I like Dan, so I will not punch him in the nose if I were ever to meet him. It was just an example. Breathe easy Dan.

Or if you don't do that kind of thing, pray for me to change my mind. I'm open to anything. Pray for him to change me. Or Siridar. Or Dan himself. Ask him to show himself like he did way back when. Oh wait, he don't do that anymore, right? Why not? Because we aren't ignorant desert dwellers? I know all the excuses. Maybe your god doesn't manifest anymore because he's dead? Or maybe he never existed in the first place. Just saying.