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	<title>Comments on: "Wow. Moth balls. So, what's for dinner?" "Plastique."</title>
	<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/</link>
	<description>the blog that is not dansdata.com</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 14 May 2013 00:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Red October</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3187</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:51:44 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3187</guid>
					<description>I think that everyone has proved what I said in my first post... it's pretty easy to think of a dozen ways to get an explosion of non-trivial size.  I can't believe I forgot about lighter gas when there are three cylinders in front of me as we speak (type?).  The clincher is that it's another matter entirely to get a whacking great explosion of the kind that would interest a career madman, unless of course you pile it all into a truck in quantities that would make people at least think twice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think that everyone has proved what I said in my first post... it's pretty easy to think of a dozen ways to get an explosion of non-trivial size.  I can't believe I forgot about lighter gas when there are three cylinders in front of me as we speak (type?).  The clincher is that it's another matter entirely to get a whacking great explosion of the kind that would interest a career madman, unless of course you pile it all into a truck in quantities that would make people at least think twice.
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		<title>by: Warg</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3186</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 06:19:42 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3186</guid>
					<description>Of course, in most (all?) civilized countries, anyone growing up in the countryside sooner or later comes across an improperly stored stash of old blasting caps and frighteningly sweaty old dynamite. I know I did; we used to bring blasting caps to school and blow up the handlebars of people's bicycles. Stick the cap inside the hollow handle, and with luck it turns trombone shaped like Elmer Fudd's shotgun. Makes people really scratch their heads. That was a couple of decades ago, but I still come across old explosives now and then. Europe, and much of several other continents, is still littered with WWII and earlier explosives; just today I recieved a call from a man who found a fully functional &quot;Mills' bomb&quot; (brit handgrenade) while cleaning out his attic. His grandpa was a resistance member during the war, and simply left (or forgot) the grenade up there at war's end.  A real terrorist wouldn't have much trouble scoring real military-grade high explosives, if he had the balls and the skills to search for old munitions dumps and scavenge explosive filler from rusty old arty shells etc. Which is precisely what they're doing in Iraq for making IED's, btw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Of course, in most (all?) civilized countries, anyone growing up in the countryside sooner or later comes across an improperly stored stash of old blasting caps and frighteningly sweaty old dynamite. I know I did; we used to bring blasting caps to school and blow up the handlebars of people's bicycles. Stick the cap inside the hollow handle, and with luck it turns trombone shaped like Elmer Fudd's shotgun. Makes people really scratch their heads. That was a couple of decades ago, but I still come across old explosives now and then. Europe, and much of several other continents, is still littered with WWII and earlier explosives; just today I recieved a call from a man who found a fully functional "Mills' bomb" (brit handgrenade) while cleaning out his attic. His grandpa was a resistance member during the war, and simply left (or forgot) the grenade up there at war's end.  A real terrorist wouldn't have much trouble scoring real military-grade high explosives, if he had the balls and the skills to search for old munitions dumps and scavenge explosive filler from rusty old arty shells etc. Which is precisely what they're doing in Iraq for making IED's, btw.
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		<title>by: reyalp</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3181</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:09:25 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3181</guid>
					<description>To assume terrorists need something small and concealable is movie plot thinking. Getting a vehicle within range of a lot of people isn't hard.

Jens is correct, it's hard to get a propane to really go boom. The tanks are designed to vent (which makes a big flame, but not an explosion). Even if you release a whole bunch at once, propane has a narrow combustion range, so lighting it off is harder than you might think. Getting a BOOM rather than a FOOMP is harder, but a FOOMP in a confined space can be pretty damaging.

That said, I'd bet if you dedicated yourself to making propane tanks go BOOM, you could eventually get a reliable system that would demolish a garage with a 5 gallon can. Perfecting that before someone noticed your efforts would be a different story.

Other options:
Hydrogen has a MUCH broader combustion range, and can easily be produced, either by electrolysis (slow and power intensive) or from commonly available household materials. Storing and transporting the shear quantity equivalent to a propane can would be present difficulties, but you may not need to. You can also get it in bottles, but not in hardware that stores I know of.

Acetylene (which isn't supermarket, but can be found in hardware stores here) is also easier to make go boom. Welding tanks have various safety features, but producing a garage leveling boom wouldn't be much trouble. Unlike propane, it's just itching to take your face off.

An alternate approach for things like propane is to add oxidizer, i.e. a bottle of pure O2 (again not supermarket, but easy enough to get.) If you bust open an 02 bottle and a propane can in close proximity, the whole &quot;mix your propane with air&quot; problem pretty much goes away... along with your garage. Of course, if you are buying an oxygen bottle, you might as well go with acetylene.

Highly compressed oxygen (or even air) in the presence of various common substances results in an explosion hazard.

Non combustion &quot;explosions&quot; of things like boilers or air tanks can produce garage leveling events if their safety devices are disabled.

Overall, I'd say you can make plenty of stuff that could get the job done. Most of it won't come close to TNT pound for pound, but it doesn't need to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To assume terrorists need something small and concealable is movie plot thinking. Getting a vehicle within range of a lot of people isn't hard.</p>
	<p>Jens is correct, it's hard to get a propane to really go boom. The tanks are designed to vent (which makes a big flame, but not an explosion). Even if you release a whole bunch at once, propane has a narrow combustion range, so lighting it off is harder than you might think. Getting a BOOM rather than a FOOMP is harder, but a FOOMP in a confined space can be pretty damaging.</p>
	<p>That said, I'd bet if you dedicated yourself to making propane tanks go BOOM, you could eventually get a reliable system that would demolish a garage with a 5 gallon can. Perfecting that before someone noticed your efforts would be a different story.</p>
	<p>Other options:<br />
Hydrogen has a MUCH broader combustion range, and can easily be produced, either by electrolysis (slow and power intensive) or from commonly available household materials. Storing and transporting the shear quantity equivalent to a propane can would be present difficulties, but you may not need to. You can also get it in bottles, but not in hardware that stores I know of.</p>
	<p>Acetylene (which isn't supermarket, but can be found in hardware stores here) is also easier to make go boom. Welding tanks have various safety features, but producing a garage leveling boom wouldn't be much trouble. Unlike propane, it's just itching to take your face off.</p>
	<p>An alternate approach for things like propane is to add oxidizer, i.e. a bottle of pure O2 (again not supermarket, but easy enough to get.) If you bust open an 02 bottle and a propane can in close proximity, the whole "mix your propane with air" problem pretty much goes away... along with your garage. Of course, if you are buying an oxygen bottle, you might as well go with acetylene.</p>
	<p>Highly compressed oxygen (or even air) in the presence of various common substances results in an explosion hazard.</p>
	<p>Non combustion "explosions" of things like boilers or air tanks can produce garage leveling events if their safety devices are disabled.</p>
	<p>Overall, I'd say you can make plenty of stuff that could get the job done. Most of it won't come close to TNT pound for pound, but it doesn't need to.
</p>
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		<title>by: Changes</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3180</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:51:23 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3180</guid>
					<description>I never for a moment thought propane could win against TNT, but store clerks look at you funny if you ask for high explosives. :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I never for a moment thought propane could win against TNT, but store clerks look at you funny if you ask for high explosives. :P
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		<title>by: Jens</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3179</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:08:53 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3179</guid>
					<description>Changes: It is possible, but not reliably so.
Most times the darn thing just burns out, albeit with a very impressive flame. While this would certainly be a tad inconvenient given, that you will no longer have a home it is hardly what I call an explosion. Problem is, you have to mix it  with air to go boom. If you manage to blow the thing up and THEN ignite the mix you have an explosion. If you don´t manage to mix it you have a fire.
Again, for terrorist uses we need something small and conceillable. A Propane tank of adequate size is neither. 
We have to talk size here Your propane cylinder against, say 2 grams of TNT. Two grams fit in a teaspoon. Who would &quot;win&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Changes: It is possible, but not reliably so.<br />
Most times the darn thing just burns out, albeit with a very impressive flame. While this would certainly be a tad inconvenient given, that you will no longer have a home it is hardly what I call an explosion. Problem is, you have to mix it  with air to go boom. If you manage to blow the thing up and THEN ignite the mix you have an explosion. If you don´t manage to mix it you have a fire.<br />
Again, for terrorist uses we need something small and conceillable. A Propane tank of adequate size is neither.<br />
We have to talk size here Your propane cylinder against, say 2 grams of TNT. Two grams fit in a teaspoon. Who would "win"?
</p>
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		<title>by: Changes</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3178</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:27:00 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3178</guid>
					<description>Matkun, Jens: while I'll agree most of what I said is unlikely to cause serious booms, are you certain propane cylinders wouldn't blow up with enough force to do some serious damage?
I've seen videos of such things going up, and always thought &quot;man, am I glad this isn't happening in my home&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matkun, Jens: while I'll agree most of what I said is unlikely to cause serious booms, are you certain propane cylinders wouldn't blow up with enough force to do some serious damage?<br />
I've seen videos of such things going up, and always thought "man, am I glad this isn't happening in my home".
</p>
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		<title>by: yasth</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3177</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 07:01:49 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3177</guid>
					<description>There is a massive difference between what one can blow up given no space requirements, and what one can blow up with apparatus that might be called discreet. 

Anyways, most of this discussion is silly. I mean for god sakes you can buy both black powder and gun powder by the kilo. Any decent sporting/gun store will sell this to you, and black powder can be made with relative ease  using little more than what one might find at a campsite (and a lot of time). 

As impressive as a flour bomb might be... couple kilos of a properly packed and compressed powder will do wonders on your garage. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is a massive difference between what one can blow up given no space requirements, and what one can blow up with apparatus that might be called discreet. </p>
	<p>Anyways, most of this discussion is silly. I mean for god sakes you can buy both black powder and gun powder by the kilo. Any decent sporting/gun store will sell this to you, and black powder can be made with relative ease  using little more than what one might find at a campsite (and a lot of time). </p>
	<p>As impressive as a flour bomb might be... couple kilos of a properly packed and compressed powder will do wonders on your garage.
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		<title>by: Stefans</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3176</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:29:39 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3176</guid>
					<description>I've wondered about the possibility of forcing petrol through a mister (like a carburettor) with a gas under pressure (Propane, for example). Seems like if you manage to get it right you could make a small scale fuel-air bomb.  Get it wrong, of course, and you're in a burn unit and then prison. Anyone know if this is feasible?  I really don't want to try it (Does the petrol station outside the supermarket count, anyway?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I've wondered about the possibility of forcing petrol through a mister (like a carburettor) with a gas under pressure (Propane, for example). Seems like if you manage to get it right you could make a small scale fuel-air bomb.  Get it wrong, of course, and you're in a burn unit and then prison. Anyone know if this is feasible?  I really don't want to try it (Does the petrol station outside the supermarket count, anyway?).
</p>
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		<title>by: rndmnmbr</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3175</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:53:27 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3175</guid>
					<description>I think if you took any given chemist with explosives experience and gave them the run of a hardware store and grocery store, and they might surprise you with what they could blow down.

Jimmy the Creepy Kid Living Down The Street, well, that's another story altogether.  About the only thing he's going to do is blow himself up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think if you took any given chemist with explosives experience and gave them the run of a hardware store and grocery store, and they might surprise you with what they could blow down.</p>
	<p>Jimmy the Creepy Kid Living Down The Street, well, that's another story altogether.  About the only thing he's going to do is blow himself up.
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		<title>by: chickenface</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3174</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:35:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/29/wow-moth-balls-so-whats-for-dinner-plastique/#comment-3174</guid>
					<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/12/1073877762976.html?from=storyrhs&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this guy &lt;/a&gt; apparently used a sparkler to set off his bomb. He mightn't have been able to get everything he needed from a supermarket, but Bunnings? maybe.

&lt;i&gt;[That was an &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO&quot;&gt;ANFO&lt;/a&gt; bomb, and the report that he used a sparkler as a fuse seems to be, presumably deliberately, leaving out what the sparkler was actually stuck into. ANFO is a low-sensitivity explosive; you can't set it off with a mere fuse. There isn't a &quot;blasting caps&quot; aisle in Bunnings, either :-). -Dan]&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/12/1073877762976.html?from=storyrhs" rel="nofollow">this guy </a> apparently used a sparkler to set off his bomb. He mightn't have been able to get everything he needed from a supermarket, but Bunnings? maybe.</p>
	<p><i>[That was an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO">ANFO</a> bomb, and the report that he used a sparkler as a fuse seems to be, presumably deliberately, leaving out what the sparkler was actually stuck into. ANFO is a low-sensitivity explosive; you can't set it off with a mere fuse. There isn't a "blasting caps" aisle in Bunnings, either :-). -Dan]</i>
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