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	<title>Comments on: Light-Bulbs Of DOOOOOOMMMM!</title>
	<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/</link>
	<description>the blog that is not dansdata.com</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4808</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 03:14:21 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4808</guid>
					<description>It took me a while to find the document you're quoting there, wkmacc, since you didn't mention the title.

(This, of course, immediately made me think that you, or someone upstream from you, had just made the whole thing up, because that's what usually happens when people throw around unsourced quotes. Only my preternatural desire to not do anything productive &lt;b&gt;or&lt;/b&gt; entertaining with what remains of my evening spurred me to continue the investigation.)

The document in question is titled &quot;Shedding Light on Mercury Risks from CFL Breakage&quot;, and it can indeed be found on a Mercury Policy Project site of some description - mpp.cclearn.org, instead of their main www.mercurypolicy.org . Interested readers can download it from &lt;a href=&quot;http://mpp.cclearn.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/final_shedding_light_all.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here (PDF)&lt;/a&gt;.

Unfortunately, although the authors certainly do say that &quot;hypersensitivity of the developing brain to damage from elemental mercury has been well documented in animal studies&quot;, they do not &lt;b&gt;cite&lt;/b&gt; any such studies. It's also a bit odd that there's no human epidemiological evidence to be had - if this is actually the case - since quite a lot of epidemiological studies &lt;b&gt;have&lt;/b&gt; been done on people who live in areas with lots of air pollution, and air pollution from coal-fired power stations, among other sources, is rich in elemental mercury.

And the Mercury Policy Project themselves don't seem to make this same claim anywhere else, which also strikes me as odd.

I can't, for a start, find it anywhere on the main Mercury Policy Project Web site. When I searched the site for &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?&amp;amp;q=site:mercurypolicy.org &amp;quot;developing brain&amp;quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;developing brain&lt;/a&gt;&quot;, I found they have a document called &quot;Over the Limit: Eating Too Much High-Mercury Fish, dated October 2008 and authored by Edward Groth and Eric Uram, &lt;a href=&quot;http://mercurypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/mppoverthelimit.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here (PDF)&lt;/a&gt;. It's about methylmercury, which you'll recall I agree is a very toxic substance, but it doesn't seem to mention elemental mercury anywhere. If they think elemental mercury's a big deal, you'd think they'd have mentioned it.

The only other mercurypolicy.org hit for &quot;developing brain&quot; was a link on &lt;a href=&quot;http://mercurypolicy.org/?page_id=122&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this page&lt;/a&gt;, to a paper (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7743/7743.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PDF&lt;/a&gt;) titled &quot;Public Health and Economic Consequences of Methyl Mercury Toxicity to the Developing Brain&quot;. Which, again, ain't about metallic mercury; they mention metallic mercury, but only because elemental mercury pollution that finds its way to the appropriate bacteria can be turned into methylmercury. Which, once again, is bad news.

Switching the search to mpp.cclearn.org, I found the CFL-breakage document, two more documents warning about methylmercury, and two documents that mention the possible dangers of mercury fillings. Read charitably, they recommend the application of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle&quot;&gt;precautionary principle&lt;/a&gt;, which in this case apparently means avoiding mercury-amalgam fillings that provably outgas very very close to zero mercury - well, compared with the amount of mercury you inhale every day from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402143746.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;normal suburban air&lt;/a&gt;, anyway. Instead, I suppose you should insist on gold, no matter how expensive it is, because I'm sure nobody this dedicated to the precautionary principle would recommend those strange and untested composite fillings composed of synthetic resins with names as long as your arm.

The authors you mention also don't seem to have any collaborative works listed in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Medline&lt;/a&gt;. I'm no Medline search ninja, but I've done a few searches now and haven't found anything from anybody else that support your statement, either. I mean, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9462895?ordinalpos=1&amp;amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVLinkOut&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;apparently&lt;/a&gt; you can probably &lt;i&gt;tell&lt;/i&gt;, by dissecting fetuses, if pregnant rats were exposed to four hours a day of air contaminated with 300 &lt;b&gt;micro&lt;/b&gt;grams of metallic mercury per cubic metre; since that's &lt;b&gt;one thousand times&lt;/b&gt; the Main Ambient Air Guideline of 300 &lt;b&gt;nano&lt;/b&gt;grams per cubic metre, I'm not bloody surprised.

It's not hard to find hits for a search vaguely connected with with developing brains and mercury hypersensitivity; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;amp;safe=off&amp;amp;q=hypersensitivity+&amp;quot;developing+brain&amp;quot;+(&amp;quot;metallic+mercury&amp;quot;+OR+&amp;quot;elemental+mercury&amp;quot;+OR+&amp;quot;inorganic+mercury&amp;quot;)&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here's&lt;/a&gt; a jumping-off point. The results that're actually relevant all seem to be talking about organic mercury compounds or &lt;b&gt;large&lt;/b&gt; doses of metallic mercury, though. Do please tell me if you strike oil on results page 19, or something.

Oh, and since we seem to be playing the Duelling Experts game with an added coda of Make The Other Guy Humiliate Himself 'Cos He's Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, I hereby require that if your allegation turns out to be misattributed, fictional, published in the Letters section of a medical journal and then misleadingly claimed to have been &quot;published in a peer-reviewed journal&quot;, et cetera, you must drop your pants and run seven times around the pool table singing &quot;I've Got A Lovely Bunch Of Coconuts&quot;.

You may select a clockwise or anticlockwise run according to your personal preference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It took me a while to find the document you're quoting there, wkmacc, since you didn't mention the title.</p>
	<p>(This, of course, immediately made me think that you, or someone upstream from you, had just made the whole thing up, because that's what usually happens when people throw around unsourced quotes. Only my preternatural desire to not do anything productive <b>or</b> entertaining with what remains of my evening spurred me to continue the investigation.)</p>
	<p>The document in question is titled "Shedding Light on Mercury Risks from CFL Breakage", and it can indeed be found on a Mercury Policy Project site of some description - mpp.cclearn.org, instead of their main <a href='http://www.mercurypolicy.org' rel='nofollow'>www.mercurypolicy.org</a> . Interested readers can download it from <a href="http://mpp.cclearn.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/final_shedding_light_all.pdf" rel="nofollow">here (PDF)</a>.</p>
	<p>Unfortunately, although the authors certainly do say that "hypersensitivity of the developing brain to damage from elemental mercury has been well documented in animal studies", they do not <b>cite</b> any such studies. It's also a bit odd that there's no human epidemiological evidence to be had - if this is actually the case - since quite a lot of epidemiological studies <b>have</b> been done on people who live in areas with lots of air pollution, and air pollution from coal-fired power stations, among other sources, is rich in elemental mercury.</p>
	<p>And the Mercury Policy Project themselves don't seem to make this same claim anywhere else, which also strikes me as odd.</p>
	<p>I can't, for a start, find it anywhere on the main Mercury Policy Project Web site. When I searched the site for "<a href="http://www.google.com/search?&amp;q=site:mercurypolicy.org &quot;developing brain&quot;" rel="nofollow">developing brain</a>", I found they have a document called "Over the Limit: Eating Too Much High-Mercury Fish, dated October 2008 and authored by Edward Groth and Eric Uram, <a href="http://mercurypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/mppoverthelimit.pdf" rel="nofollow">here (PDF)</a>. It's about methylmercury, which you'll recall I agree is a very toxic substance, but it doesn't seem to mention elemental mercury anywhere. If they think elemental mercury's a big deal, you'd think they'd have mentioned it.</p>
	<p>The only other mercurypolicy.org hit for "developing brain" was a link on <a href="http://mercurypolicy.org/?page_id=122" rel="nofollow">this page</a>, to a paper (<a href="http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7743/7743.pdf" rel="nofollow">PDF</a>) titled "Public Health and Economic Consequences of Methyl Mercury Toxicity to the Developing Brain". Which, again, ain't about metallic mercury; they mention metallic mercury, but only because elemental mercury pollution that finds its way to the appropriate bacteria can be turned into methylmercury. Which, once again, is bad news.</p>
	<p>Switching the search to mpp.cclearn.org, I found the CFL-breakage document, two more documents warning about methylmercury, and two documents that mention the possible dangers of mercury fillings. Read charitably, they recommend the application of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle">precautionary principle</a>, which in this case apparently means avoiding mercury-amalgam fillings that provably outgas very very close to zero mercury - well, compared with the amount of mercury you inhale every day from <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402143746.htm" rel="nofollow">normal suburban air</a>, anyway. Instead, I suppose you should insist on gold, no matter how expensive it is, because I'm sure nobody this dedicated to the precautionary principle would recommend those strange and untested composite fillings composed of synthetic resins with names as long as your arm.</p>
	<p>The authors you mention also don't seem to have any collaborative works listed in <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez" rel="nofollow">Medline</a>. I'm no Medline search ninja, but I've done a few searches now and haven't found anything from anybody else that support your statement, either. I mean, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9462895?ordinalpos=1&amp;itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVLinkOut" rel="nofollow">apparently</a> you can probably <i>tell</i>, by dissecting fetuses, if pregnant rats were exposed to four hours a day of air contaminated with 300 <b>micro</b>grams of metallic mercury per cubic metre; since that's <b>one thousand times</b> the Main Ambient Air Guideline of 300 <b>nano</b>grams per cubic metre, I'm not bloody surprised.</p>
	<p>It's not hard to find hits for a search vaguely connected with with developing brains and mercury hypersensitivity; <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;safe=off&amp;q=hypersensitivity+&quot;developing+brain&quot;+(&quot;metallic+mercury&quot;+OR+&quot;elemental+mercury&quot;+OR+&quot;inorganic+mercury&quot;)" rel="nofollow">here's</a> a jumping-off point. The results that're actually relevant all seem to be talking about organic mercury compounds or <b>large</b> doses of metallic mercury, though. Do please tell me if you strike oil on results page 19, or something.</p>
	<p>Oh, and since we seem to be playing the Duelling Experts game with an added coda of Make The Other Guy Humiliate Himself 'Cos He's Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, I hereby require that if your allegation turns out to be misattributed, fictional, published in the Letters section of a medical journal and then misleadingly claimed to have been "published in a peer-reviewed journal", et cetera, you must drop your pants and run seven times around the pool table singing "I've Got A Lovely Bunch Of Coconuts".</p>
	<p>You may select a clockwise or anticlockwise run according to your personal preference.
</p>
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		<title>by: wkmacc</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4806</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 02:03:56 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4806</guid>
					<description>Your words: &quot;Executive summary: The second you read someone saying that metallic mercury is an incredibly potent neurotoxin, you know you’re looking at bullshit.  ORGANIC mercury compounds are indeed ultra-poisonous, but metallic mercury quite simply is not. It ain’t good for you; there ain’t no Vitamin C in there. But breathing a bit of metallic mercury vapour really is not a big deal.&quot;

The words of people who actually know:
&quot;There is no comparable body of epidemiological
evidence on the effects of mercury
vapor in the very young, but an analogous
hypersensitivity of the developing brain to
damage from elemental mercury has been
well documented in animal studies.&quot;

• Edward Groth, PhD, Groth Consulting Services, Pelham, NY
• Alicia Culver, Green Purchasing Institute and
• Eric Uram, Headwater Consulting / Sierra Club – National Environmental
Quality Strategy Team.

Mercury Policy Project
1420 North St.
Montpelier, VT 05602
www.mercurypolicy.org
©2008

Now, your job is to admit your ignorance and advise your readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Your words: "Executive summary: The second you read someone saying that metallic mercury is an incredibly potent neurotoxin, you know you’re looking at bullshit.  ORGANIC mercury compounds are indeed ultra-poisonous, but metallic mercury quite simply is not. It ain’t good for you; there ain’t no Vitamin C in there. But breathing a bit of metallic mercury vapour really is not a big deal."</p>
	<p>The words of people who actually know:<br />
"There is no comparable body of epidemiological<br />
evidence on the effects of mercury<br />
vapor in the very young, but an analogous<br />
hypersensitivity of the developing brain to<br />
damage from elemental mercury has been<br />
well documented in animal studies."</p>
	<p>• Edward Groth, PhD, Groth Consulting Services, Pelham, NY<br />
• Alicia Culver, Green Purchasing Institute and<br />
• Eric Uram, Headwater Consulting / Sierra Club – National Environmental<br />
Quality Strategy Team.</p>
	<p>Mercury Policy Project<br />
1420 North St.<br />
Montpelier, VT 05602<br />
<a href='http://www.mercurypolicy.org' rel='nofollow'>www.mercurypolicy.org</a><br />
©2008</p>
	<p>Now, your job is to admit your ignorance and advise your readers.
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4667</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 17:25:21 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4667</guid>
					<description>I'm still waiting for you to &lt;i&gt;source&lt;/i&gt; these statements, Kevan. I'm sure that at least some of what you say is true, but I really do need to know on what you base your assertions, because they do not seem to entirely match up with what I know about these subjects.

The EU incandescent-lamp ban, to choose one example, does indeed have a 2012 deadline. But member states are left to their own devices as to how they enforce this. Some are banning sales of incandescent lamps altogether; others, like &lt;a href=&quot;http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/on-the-heels-of-a-bulb-ban-europe-mulls-pulling-the-plug-on-large-plasma-tvs/&quot;&gt;Britain&lt;/a&gt;, have a voluntary phase-out, starting with hundred-watt bulbs.

I need to know why you think the ban will, in fact, make it impossible to buy incandescent bulbs of all sorts in all - or even most - of the EU by 2012. Given the usual degree to which nations conform to international agreements - even ones having to do with very important things like human rights and inhumane weapons, never mind just light bulbs - I'd find it very surprising if incandescent bulbs actually became impossible to at least buy in batches on eBay from overseas, even in countries that ban their sale locally.

I also expect to see exceptions made, in at least some nations, for specialty bulbs that cannot be had in more efficient versions, and whose contribution to the overall energy budget is not large. Take purpose-built &lt;a href=&quot;/2008/01/07/another-overpriced-heater/&quot;&gt;heat lamps&lt;/a&gt;, for instance. (Apparently it actually is possible to buy compact fluorescents that fit in standard 375W heat-lamp sockets - this of course means your bathroom heater doesn't heat any more. :-)

And even if it really does become impossible, or unreasonably impractical, to buy ordinary incandescent bulbs in many nations, a deadline of 2012 strikes me as one that gives a decent amount of time for usefully bright and affordable (especially when you take into account their very long lifespan) LED lamps to arrive.

So I just don't see what the big problem is, Kevan. Please support your argument with references if you choose to continue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I'm still waiting for you to <i>source</i> these statements, Kevan. I'm sure that at least some of what you say is true, but I really do need to know on what you base your assertions, because they do not seem to entirely match up with what I know about these subjects.</p>
	<p>The EU incandescent-lamp ban, to choose one example, does indeed have a 2012 deadline. But member states are left to their own devices as to how they enforce this. Some are banning sales of incandescent lamps altogether; others, like <a href="http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/on-the-heels-of-a-bulb-ban-europe-mulls-pulling-the-plug-on-large-plasma-tvs/">Britain</a>, have a voluntary phase-out, starting with hundred-watt bulbs.</p>
	<p>I need to know why you think the ban will, in fact, make it impossible to buy incandescent bulbs of all sorts in all - or even most - of the EU by 2012. Given the usual degree to which nations conform to international agreements - even ones having to do with very important things like human rights and inhumane weapons, never mind just light bulbs - I'd find it very surprising if incandescent bulbs actually became impossible to at least buy in batches on eBay from overseas, even in countries that ban their sale locally.</p>
	<p>I also expect to see exceptions made, in at least some nations, for specialty bulbs that cannot be had in more efficient versions, and whose contribution to the overall energy budget is not large. Take purpose-built <a href="/2008/01/07/another-overpriced-heater/">heat lamps</a>, for instance. (Apparently it actually is possible to buy compact fluorescents that fit in standard 375W heat-lamp sockets - this of course means your bathroom heater doesn't heat any more. :-)</p>
	<p>And even if it really does become impossible, or unreasonably impractical, to buy ordinary incandescent bulbs in many nations, a deadline of 2012 strikes me as one that gives a decent amount of time for usefully bright and affordable (especially when you take into account their very long lifespan) LED lamps to arrive.</p>
	<p>So I just don't see what the big problem is, Kevan. Please support your argument with references if you choose to continue.
</p>
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		<title>by: kevan</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4666</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:08:12 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4666</guid>
					<description>Daniel, I just got back here an fel I should answer some of your points.
1 PLDA is not my organisation I am a member. It is composed of a large number of Independent lighting Designers throughout the world. I am a mere voluntary Director!
2 Since writing the EU ban has been passed as EU law. Incandescent lamps will now disappear completely over the next few years.
3 We have a number of &quot;Dimmable CFLi&quot; None perform as well as incandescent lamps. Many have a limited dimming range and start to flicker badly below 30%. None look good dimmed the colour appearance goes gray rather than warmwer lik an incandescent. Retail price for &quot;Dimmable lamps is betwen 5 and 10 times that of a conventional CFLi and few retail places stock them.
4 Power factor very relevant! MOST CFLi are por power factor, Yes good power factor lamps can b made but in the EU are not generally available as again they are more costly than poor power factor types. The EU regulations set in place PERMIT poor power factor lamps so there is no market for more costly corrected lamps.
• The mercury figures used in these comparisons are worst case. In the EU less than 30% of electricity is generated by coal fired power stations. Mercury scrubbing of flue gas is very easy and should be installed as standard farily soon. CFLi will acount for 1.7 tonnes of metallic mercury in landfill in the EU each year once Incandescents are completely phased out. The problem is conversion to highly toxic Methyl Mercury in landfill, this is a one way route to the food chain and is fast. Airbourne mercury does not all end up in the food chain.
5 Sleep disturbance, may not affect everybody but is shown as evidentially proven. It is more likely to affect people with other problems such as Dementia, Asberger's syndrome, Epilepsy etc.
6 We are concerned that we are trading power generation emissions for other more insidious problems. The high proportion of non recoverable plastics, mercury , non re-useable glass that come from the manufacture of CFLi are contributing to the depletion of many natural resources. Workers are being unnecesserily exposed to hazardous materials and processes.

There are now a number of efficient Tungsten Halogen incandescent lamps appearing in the market. They offer at least 30% direct energy saving with none of the risks associated with CFLI however the EU legislation will ban these as well!

Kevan Shaw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Daniel, I just got back here an fel I should answer some of your points.<br />
1 PLDA is not my organisation I am a member. It is composed of a large number of Independent lighting Designers throughout the world. I am a mere voluntary Director!<br />
2 Since writing the EU ban has been passed as EU law. Incandescent lamps will now disappear completely over the next few years.<br />
3 We have a number of "Dimmable CFLi" None perform as well as incandescent lamps. Many have a limited dimming range and start to flicker badly below 30%. None look good dimmed the colour appearance goes gray rather than warmwer lik an incandescent. Retail price for "Dimmable lamps is betwen 5 and 10 times that of a conventional CFLi and few retail places stock them.<br />
4 Power factor very relevant! MOST CFLi are por power factor, Yes good power factor lamps can b made but in the EU are not generally available as again they are more costly than poor power factor types. The EU regulations set in place PERMIT poor power factor lamps so there is no market for more costly corrected lamps.<br />
• The mercury figures used in these comparisons are worst case. In the EU less than 30% of electricity is generated by coal fired power stations. Mercury scrubbing of flue gas is very easy and should be installed as standard farily soon. CFLi will acount for 1.7 tonnes of metallic mercury in landfill in the EU each year once Incandescents are completely phased out. The problem is conversion to highly toxic Methyl Mercury in landfill, this is a one way route to the food chain and is fast. Airbourne mercury does not all end up in the food chain.<br />
5 Sleep disturbance, may not affect everybody but is shown as evidentially proven. It is more likely to affect people with other problems such as Dementia, Asberger's syndrome, Epilepsy etc.<br />
6 We are concerned that we are trading power generation emissions for other more insidious problems. The high proportion of non recoverable plastics, mercury , non re-useable glass that come from the manufacture of CFLi are contributing to the depletion of many natural resources. Workers are being unnecesserily exposed to hazardous materials and processes.</p>
	<p>There are now a number of efficient Tungsten Halogen incandescent lamps appearing in the market. They offer at least 30% direct energy saving with none of the risks associated with CFLI however the EU legislation will ban these as well!</p>
	<p>Kevan Shaw
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4237</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 12:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4237</guid>
					<description>On reading a bit more, it becomes clear that Kevan's Professional Lighting Designer's Association has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/6/1/12&quot;&gt;an official position&lt;/a&gt; on the topic of banning incandescent bulbs altogether, namely that it's a dumb idea. I concur, here; things like cupboard and bathroom lights that aren't left on for long periods and are turned on and off frequently should stay as incandescents, at least until we can come up with a CFL that doesn't die after X many power cycles, X being too few for the lamp to last in one of these situations.

[EDIT: It now occurs to me that LED lamps will be a good option for almost all of these situations. They're still not &lt;i&gt;quite&lt;/i&gt; cheap and bright enough for use as a bathroom light, even when you consider the fact that they'll probably last pretty much forever, But super-LEDs are already quite able to substitute for the low-wattage bulbs that illuminate the insides of fridges and microwaves. You probably can't yet &lt;i&gt;buy&lt;/i&gt; an LED lamp with the right dimensions and base to fit in those little nooks, but as soon as even a half-hearted &quot;incandescent ban&quot; is legislated somewhere big, Chinese factories will start pumping out LED fridge bulbs.]

I doubt, however, that incandescent-bulb bans will be so thorough that it will actually be impossible to buy bulbs for these purposes. Perhaps the EU one really will be; I don't know.

The foundations of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/6/1/12&quot;&gt;PLDA's complaint&lt;/a&gt; seem to me to be a scattershot collection of factoids, not all of which are true. Among the statements which I think are invalid:

* CFLs are unsuitable for use on dimmer-switch circuits. This is true for common-or-garden CFLs; if you've got the usual kind of little-buzzing-knob dimmer, you have to remove it altogether from the circuit, not just leave it turned up to max. But it is now possible to buy &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/997/&quot;&gt;dimmable CFLs&lt;/a&gt;, reducing this problem to a minor nuisance.

* &quot;The ballast power factor is very poor.&quot; It's my understanding that it's now quite difficult to buy a CFL with a lousy power factor; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dansdata.com/gz028.htm&quot;&gt;power-factor correction&lt;/a&gt; circuitry is standard equipment for modern CFLs. I suppose the PLDA ought to know more about this than I do, but they don't seem to mention corrected CFLs at all, which strikes me as odd.

* No organised way to recover or recycle the lamps. True, but not very relevant. I think it's not a bad deal to get a little metallic mercury going into landfills in return for not burning a lot of coal, which creates several different flavours of air pollution, and of course lots of CO2. If you prefer the air-pollution option, put your old CFLs in a bucket, take it outside, and smash 'em with a brick; the mercury will all have wafted away in a minute or two, and you can drop the remains in the bin.

* Disturbance of &lt;i&gt;sleeping patterns&lt;/i&gt;, zero effect on real carbon emissions because of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading&quot;&gt;carbon-trading&lt;/a&gt; systems that already exist: Now I think you're just being silly.

People with CFL bedside lamps are not all suddenly being stricken with insomnia, and I think your understanding of cap-and-trade systems is defective. Yes, organisations subject to emissions-trading systems like &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Trading_Scheme&quot;&gt;the EU one&lt;/a&gt; are, in the aggregate, still going to emit as much as the system allows them to, but the whole point of these systems is to reduce pollution by slowly reducing the cap, and it won't be possible to do that if nobody saves any bloody power. The more CFLs and other emissions-reducing devices people install, the lower will be the industry pressure to keep the cap high.

(And you can too use CFLs in enclosed outdoor light fittings. I do here. They may never warm up and start glowing properly if you're using them in a winter in most of the EU, but in warmer climates - including &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; of the EU - they work just fine.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On reading a bit more, it becomes clear that Kevan's Professional Lighting Designer's Association has <a href="http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/6/1/12">an official position</a> on the topic of banning incandescent bulbs altogether, namely that it's a dumb idea. I concur, here; things like cupboard and bathroom lights that aren't left on for long periods and are turned on and off frequently should stay as incandescents, at least until we can come up with a CFL that doesn't die after X many power cycles, X being too few for the lamp to last in one of these situations.</p>
	<p>[EDIT: It now occurs to me that LED lamps will be a good option for almost all of these situations. They're still not <i>quite</i> cheap and bright enough for use as a bathroom light, even when you consider the fact that they'll probably last pretty much forever, But super-LEDs are already quite able to substitute for the low-wattage bulbs that illuminate the insides of fridges and microwaves. You probably can't yet <i>buy</i> an LED lamp with the right dimensions and base to fit in those little nooks, but as soon as even a half-hearted "incandescent ban" is legislated somewhere big, Chinese factories will start pumping out LED fridge bulbs.]</p>
	<p>I doubt, however, that incandescent-bulb bans will be so thorough that it will actually be impossible to buy bulbs for these purposes. Perhaps the EU one really will be; I don't know.</p>
	<p>The foundations of the <a href="http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/6/1/12">PLDA's complaint</a> seem to me to be a scattershot collection of factoids, not all of which are true. Among the statements which I think are invalid:</p>
	<p>* CFLs are unsuitable for use on dimmer-switch circuits. This is true for common-or-garden CFLs; if you've got the usual kind of little-buzzing-knob dimmer, you have to remove it altogether from the circuit, not just leave it turned up to max. But it is now possible to buy <a href="http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/997/">dimmable CFLs</a>, reducing this problem to a minor nuisance.</p>
	<p>* "The ballast power factor is very poor." It's my understanding that it's now quite difficult to buy a CFL with a lousy power factor; <a href="http://www.dansdata.com/gz028.htm">power-factor correction</a> circuitry is standard equipment for modern CFLs. I suppose the PLDA ought to know more about this than I do, but they don't seem to mention corrected CFLs at all, which strikes me as odd.</p>
	<p>* No organised way to recover or recycle the lamps. True, but not very relevant. I think it's not a bad deal to get a little metallic mercury going into landfills in return for not burning a lot of coal, which creates several different flavours of air pollution, and of course lots of CO2. If you prefer the air-pollution option, put your old CFLs in a bucket, take it outside, and smash 'em with a brick; the mercury will all have wafted away in a minute or two, and you can drop the remains in the bin.</p>
	<p>* Disturbance of <i>sleeping patterns</i>, zero effect on real carbon emissions because of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissions_trading">carbon-trading</a> systems that already exist: Now I think you're just being silly.</p>
	<p>People with CFL bedside lamps are not all suddenly being stricken with insomnia, and I think your understanding of cap-and-trade systems is defective. Yes, organisations subject to emissions-trading systems like <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emission_Trading_Scheme">the EU one</a> are, in the aggregate, still going to emit as much as the system allows them to, but the whole point of these systems is to reduce pollution by slowly reducing the cap, and it won't be possible to do that if nobody saves any bloody power. The more CFLs and other emissions-reducing devices people install, the lower will be the industry pressure to keep the cap high.</p>
	<p>(And you can too use CFLs in enclosed outdoor light fittings. I do here. They may never warm up and start glowing properly if you're using them in a winter in most of the EU, but in warmer climates - including <i>some</i> of the EU - they work just fine.)
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4236</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 12:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4236</guid>
					<description>Do you have a source for any of this, Kevan?

The only documents I can find say that environmental mercury is significantly &lt;i&gt;reduced&lt;/i&gt; by the use of CFLs, because lower power consumed means less coal burned. I've also never heard these claims about manufacturing energy and waste. Obviously a CFL is a more complex object than an incandescent globe, but I find it hard to believe that the difference outweighs the fourfold power-consumption difference, especially given that CFLs can last a lot longer than incandescents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do you have a source for any of this, Kevan?</p>
	<p>The only documents I can find say that environmental mercury is significantly <i>reduced</i> by the use of CFLs, because lower power consumed means less coal burned. I've also never heard these claims about manufacturing energy and waste. Obviously a CFL is a more complex object than an incandescent globe, but I find it hard to believe that the difference outweighs the fourfold power-consumption difference, especially given that CFLs can last a lot longer than incandescents.
</p>
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		<title>by: kevan</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4230</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-4230</guid>
					<description>mercury in a hot lamp is gaseous so you stand a good chance of getting a lung full if you break one that is lit. In a cold lamp the mercury is condensed out all through the lamp envelope so less chance of getting too much until you get the dust up in the air this is why it is inadvisable to use a vacuum cleaner to clean them up. 

Real problems occur in landfill when the microbes present convert the mercury to methyl mercury that is water soluable and 20 times more poisonous to higher life form than metallic mercury.

So don't break them and do recycle them if you csn suffer them in the first place! 

By the way according to research carried out for the European parliament it takes 12 times the energy to manufacture a compact fluorescent energy saver lamp that it does to manufacture an incandescent lamp. The  study also shows that only 5 grams of waste are produced during the manufacture of an incandescent lamp whereas 112 grams of waste of which 78 grams are hazardous are produced in the manufacture of a compact fluorescent that typically weighs 80 grams!

Kevan Shaw Direstor of Sustainability for the Professional Lighting Designers Association</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mercury in a hot lamp is gaseous so you stand a good chance of getting a lung full if you break one that is lit. In a cold lamp the mercury is condensed out all through the lamp envelope so less chance of getting too much until you get the dust up in the air this is why it is inadvisable to use a vacuum cleaner to clean them up. </p>
	<p>Real problems occur in landfill when the microbes present convert the mercury to methyl mercury that is water soluable and 20 times more poisonous to higher life form than metallic mercury.</p>
	<p>So don't break them and do recycle them if you csn suffer them in the first place! </p>
	<p>By the way according to research carried out for the European parliament it takes 12 times the energy to manufacture a compact fluorescent energy saver lamp that it does to manufacture an incandescent lamp. The  study also shows that only 5 grams of waste are produced during the manufacture of an incandescent lamp whereas 112 grams of waste of which 78 grams are hazardous are produced in the manufacture of a compact fluorescent that typically weighs 80 grams!</p>
	<p>Kevan Shaw Direstor of Sustainability for the Professional Lighting Designers Association
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Rutter</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-3871</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 03:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-3871</guid>
					<description>Um... what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Um... what?
</p>
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		<title>by: Maryam</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-3870</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-3870</guid>
					<description>I just broke one of those light bulbs.  Am bringing it to a site and dumping the lamps.  I can just see New Yorkers using these light bulbs. No way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just broke one of those light bulbs.  Am bringing it to a site and dumping the lamps.  I can just see New Yorkers using these light bulbs. No way.
</p>
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		<title>by: LastMile</title>
		<link>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-2999</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:02:05 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/09/04/light-bulbs-of-doooooommmm/#comment-2999</guid>
					<description>Dan, any idea where to find some 85w bayonet CFLs? The links from your 2006 article no longer work and my Googlefu has turned up nothing usefull.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan, any idea where to find some 85w bayonet CFLs? The links from your 2006 article no longer work and my Googlefu has turned up nothing usefull.
</p>
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